facepost post: bumpy conditions

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11 August, 2023

Rod Treece
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 042640080/

Bellyboarding in bumpy conditions. As a lifelong stand up surfer 6 years ago I was unable to pop up properly anymore so I went back to my roots of where is all started , hardboard bellyboarding. If I had remembered how great it was I might have never bothered with standing up.
One issue I have is now that i'm laying down I'm finding it not much fun to surf when it bumpy and junky. My board has alot of floatation so here is my question:
Would it be better on those days to ride a much small Paipo where I would be laying in the water more?

Your shoulder is your shock absorber on a prone craft, for the same reasons that you struggle to pop up anymore, you may also, unfortunately, struggle to take the bump out of a wave. I would think being more submerged in the wave may help you to stay in contact with the face and cut through the bump, rather than be on top of the wave and every bump be a small ramp launching you off the wave. I would try surface area over flotation.

Bill Wurts
Another option might be to build a board with a 0.5”-1.0”, impact absorbing foam deck pad. Maybe 4-6 pcf EVA or XLPE — closed cell. I plan to try a 0.5”, 6-pcf EVA or XLPE deck pad on my next build to ease impact on my ribs and sternum.

Alan Bruce
You could always try a mat.

Rod Treece
The condition in my area IMHO are not that great for matting unless you don't mind a crowd. I normally save my Matt for Baja where there are longer point waves.

Alan Bruce
so the cure for lumps & bumps is Convex bottom & extra weight in the board - heavier glassing. These have obvious drawbacks though. Board will be slower without a concave & not as responsive from that & the extra weight. It's a tricky thing.
I ride & shape kneeboards, paipo's, surfboards & mals. Even on your knees, bumpy waves are a challenge compared to standing on a board. With my Kneelo's I just surf my heavier boards when there's size in the swell.

John Morris
Greenough went to the so-called edge board in part to deal with bump, combining a central planing hull with convex displacement style rails. I believe he retained the flex and ultra low flotation aspects of his earlier designs. I never closely examined one, but it's an intriguing concept for prone riding.

Alan Bruce
it was to reduce the planing area, improve the rail shape & to introduce an edge to improve hold when in the barrel. Cushioning for bumpy conditions may have been involved but I'd never heard or read that before.

Sharkboy Bellyboards
Try a neutral buoyancy board with lots of flex and it will absorb all those bumps

Stephen Newbegin
Or check out earlier posts pictures here where I enjoy all the bouncing in a tube but keep control with a soft top board with a three fin thruster configuration with very high float cushion under my body. All these choices mean you can pick from your increased paipo quiver like a golfer picking his iron depending ....so fun.

Speaking of bumpy conditions for paipo riding I had the coolest experience the other day during the changing vertical tides here. A large set of multiple 3-4 foot wind waves closed out for almost everyone inside. Because of all the water pushing in over the reef, it made an even bigger wave peak inside further than the earlier close outs. I took a great right with no bumps but the whole section was bubbling white over the whole face for the whole ride due to the left over suds. It was like a smooth but bubbling white champagne like steep face. I was sure celebrating for joy after that. I would have never got this wave as a surfer or kneeboarder even having been riding waves for over 60 years.

Larry O'Brien
Does your board have a lot of concave on the bottom?

Rod Treece
YES

Larry O'Brien
That's a big YES. Are there concave(s) the full length of the bottom?

John Morris
I've dealt with this. Even if you elevate your torso to absorb shock through your arms, your mid section/pelvis is still pressing down on the tail. On my early attempts at paipo riding (after ~60 years standing) the nose would flap in chop making it hard to get the rail in. I've dropped length, gone narrower and thinner plus subtly increased belly forward and vee in the tail. Fall conditions will tell me if my newest board deals better with bump on the face. I'm down to 4'11 by 20 1/2" by 2" thick with a concave deck with shock absorbing pad. Also, I think it's pretty universal that the deeper in the pocket you ride the smoother the face.

John Dixson
Hi Rod I find a 12mm ply paipo doesn’t bounce around as much as a foam glass board, and I don’t suffer sore chest as much but you fall down the pecking order a bit.

Rod Treece
What lenght is it?

John Dixson
4 ft

Damian Coase
Don Boland and I have struggled with this at a couple of offshore reef waves we rise. The path so far is to have a heavier board, in our case PU versus Epoxy, and use vee in the nose. George Greenough was way ahead of his time and advocated an edge bottom, with nose vee, on his spoons and sailboards to help with chop. Try and get a copy of Andrew Kidmans excellent book/video called "On the edge of a dream ". My wave size limit is about 6 foot these days but Don still charges 10 foot monsters.

Steven Halpin
I find the English style bellyboard actually works best in lumpy crap surf, a gamechanger and fast as hell


Thomas Patrick Surfboards
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what I call the “skipping stone” phenomenon and how to counter it. About 7 years ago actually designed a prone board with a deep v-to-flat bottom, but never built it. Long discussions on the MyPaipo forum led me to abandon this design. Then, I came across a video of a bodyboard rider on a wave taken from beneath the surface of the wave. It was clear from the video that only about the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the tail was in contact with the water (that and the rider’s thighs). Back to the drawing board…
I also once built a prone board using a tri-plane hull design, specifically for California winter waves. It rode very smoothly, i.e., no “skipping stone” if I could control my speed. I named that board the “Manta” because of its horned outline shape. Likewise, I built a couple of “Hull-style” displacement prone boards but never got a chance to ride them. One was a single fin a la Greenough, and the other was a 2+1 if memory serves me. Ride reports for both echoed the “smooth, cruise-y” feel in larger waves. So, for larger waves, switching from a planning-hull to a displacement-hull might be the way to go.

John Morris
By 'bodyboard' you mean the soft foamie ala Morey Boogie, yes? Those are flat, flexy, and typically floatier than a paipo of similar dimensions. Plus they're generally ridden around 24 inches shorter than the rider's height, from my observation. With that much of the rider's body in the water, the body's (knees, shins and flippers) effect needs to be taken into consideration. You don't mention any dimensions in your comment, but I wonder how transferable the ride characteristics of a bodyboard are to paipos? When it gets much overhead and bumpy I've switched to a body (boogie) board in the past. Hoping to stay with a 4'11" paipo this year.

Keith Usher
the dimensions of a bodyboard transfer perfectly to a paipo, my paipo template was made by just drawing round my fav bodyboard.


Rod Treece
Thanks Thomas, This is only for smaller junky waves. For biger waves I only go out when it's clean and ride my "Screamer"

Don Boland
Damian and I were talking yesterday about how many surfs a week we have on average (probably 4 or 5 a week) we are constantly observing and discussing performance and design in whatever ever conditions we have encountered.
We both have quivers and a selection of fins.We are fortunate to have eyes on us regularly I would also mention my Shaper Darren Burge he is mostly in the water when I am surfing so we are pretty lucky in that regard .
There is previous post on design by Thomas Haugh which seemed pretty logical in my opinion.After that it’s up to the surfer to make use of the various design features of their particular craft

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Duke LooPaipo & Bellyboard Riders

I went out today in 3-5 ft waves on my Paipo Board. The board skipped wildly. Why? How can I get a board that doesn't skip down the wave? Do I make the board thinner or longer? What do I need to do.

The board no fins on the bottom

Nick Worsfold
your flat plywood has nothing to mitigate surface tension..you want to break it up with a rail that digs ..or add little tiny fins the will cut the surface just enough to keep you down.paipoglide did a cool thing with an outside rail/finlet combo ..or adjust body position to slow down a little like Richard said

Jarrett Liu
Nick Worsfold you see how I pull up on the outside rail at pipeline…
May be an image of 1 person, surfboard, water and ocean

Jarrett Liu
Nick Worsfold one hand pull while the other hand is reached above the surface of the water

Nick Worsfold
Jarrett Liu nice work sir ..i paddled out there last trip ..but i just observed and tried to learn.. next time..

Jarrett Liu
Nick Worsfold let me know when you fly Honolulu, O’ahu n I’ll take you around..

Daneel Olivaw
Duke Loo probably too wide

Jarrett Liu
Duke Loo looks like a bodyboard shape n there’s the problem… this photo of me was taken back in the 90’s mini spoon shaped known as a (upside guitar pick).. this mini been ridden on 2’ft to 10’ft Hawaiian scale surf… the bigger the waves are the more body n arm’s movements are needed.
May be an image of 2 people, beach, ocean and text that says "ALOHA ΑΙOA-T ALOHASTATE STATE GAMES GOLDMEDAL GOLD MEDAL WINNER AL BRO"

Jarrett Liu
Duke Loo from a mini to a Paepo’o Nui (larger scale) I still would have to move body n hands around while riding…
May be an image of 1 person

Jarrett Liu
Duke Loo these are my custom made shapes n sizes papa paepo’o board…. Therefore, you STILL NEED TO FINE-TUNE your board, means cutting n shaping it..
May be an image of 4 people and beach

Jarrett Liu
Duke Loo I even ride these skimboard too. This is in Guam at a popular local surf spot called “Boat Basin”…. Therefore, don’t use the board when it’s truly the rider that needs HELP…
May be an image of 1 person, surfboard, skateboard and water

Jarrett Liu
Duke Loo this is my keike alaia smaller than all the rest of my wood boards I’m here taking at NS PIPELINE… hahaha
May be an illustration of 1 person and water

Trent Sutton
No expert, but suspect you might be able to move forward a bit and lay the edge in harder.

Jnthn Roper
It's gonna bounce. It's the nature of a belly board, especially if the waves are a bit bumpy.

Bruce Hart
More curve ..or more flex

Kaliko Kahoonei
Lay the rail down early and if you get out into the flats and are skipping you can lean more forward and get back to a rail

Richard Mendonca
1) Ya gotta find the, “Sweet Spot.” Every board has a, “Sweet Spot.” Try moving a bit forward or adjust your body placement, and see how she runs. 2) What’s the dimensions of your board? Because, if your board is too small for the size of wave you’re riding, no amount of body placement on the board is gonna stop the bounce.

Bud Gilfillan
I keep my wave side hand just off the nose and move my outside hand down to shoulder high to dig the rail in using my outside flipper as a fin to climb into the face of the wave and hold the line…

Bob Green
Were the water conditions smooth or bumpy? Planning flat rather being on rail, I suspect is worse, as is going fast. A big difference between standing and riding prone, is that standing your legs are like shock absorbers. On fibreglass boards, some have found v-bottoms deal with chop better, not so sure how this translates to thin wood boards. This is an issue that comes up from time to time, so you're not alone.

Dave Dolan-Smith
Width and or , planing too flat ? Dig rails in !!

Gary Clist
Do you have any concave on the tail?

Duke Loo
Gary Clist no

Hector Suerte
Thinner boards in my experience have a tendency to skip or bounce it depends on your positioning on the board the water surface conditions and your weight verses the dimensions of your board .. what style paipo are you using ?

Rod Rodgers
More "V" in the nose can mitigate skipping/plowng through surface chop & ripples more smoothly. As with any optimization, what you gain in one capability often times loses in another capability. Look, or visualize, boats and ships in various ocean surface conditions up through swells of 2 - 4 - 8 ft and how they navigate through them.
Another trick in avoiding chop is not to take the first or second wave in a set. The breaking waves can smooth out the surface of the water. Also keep in mind that high speed creates a lot of lift which then takes you to thinking about airplane wing designs and how they affect lift.

John Hall
Dig the rails in

Rod Rodgers
John Hall well, he did say going down the wave which I interpret to be riding from the crest to the bottom, in contrast to across the wave where one can get a rail in.
Some others have suggested longer or more flexible boards which is also true but may compromise other desireable design constraints. The ultimate flexi and less skipping and certainly easier on the ribs is a surf matt.


John Mellor
Forward belly in the front third tend to hold it down.

Mahi La Pierre
I have been using heavier woods - it has drive up down the wave -

Lynn Bellomi
It looks flat, adding some contours to the bottom will help. A little bevel on the nose and a V channel on the bottom (the narrow part of the V starting about a 1/3 up from the tail with the wide part of the V at the end of the tail). Instead of a V channel you could add bodyboard style channels. If you add that style, I'd start with two and make it a quad channel if you're still not getting the hold you want. Make sure the bottom of the rails are square so you can dig them into the wave.

Damian Coase
Bouncing in bumpy waves is a problem all proners face. There are some helpful suggestions in the comments. Weight can help, ie a heavier board, PU versus EPOXY and a heavier glass job. A bit more length can also be advantageous, but as Rod said, can also be less manoeuverable. More rocker and Vee in the nose can cut through chop and moving forward on the board, without nose diving, can help. There are so many variables and the biggest of all is that every wave is different. Enjoy the experimentation.

Justin Spittle
Running a 11mm railed, 4ft long, 480 wide , with 4 top cross beams, made of wood. Some other stuff on bottom and deck, all vac bagged to retain flex. Bumps not a problem as flex absorbs it and spits it out the back. Sort of like a mat but faster. And way more responsive.
It is a fine line to work out the flex amount.

Daneel Olivaw
Long narrow boards avoid side slipping

Duke Loo
3/4 in bodyboard shape

Rod Rodgers
Flat-bottomed, stiffer boards will tend to bounce with speed and even more so with surface chop and small side swell in the face of the wave (chop acts as a kind of speed ramp).

Jarrett Liu
The performance of a wood board is contingent upon a combination of factors, including the rider's skill level, the board's dimensions and shape, and the wave conditions. To minimize skipping, focus on adjusting your riding technique, such as shifting your weight and adjusting your hand placement.
“ITS NOT THE BOARD BUT THE RIDER”…. “This is Nā lōeaʻ Papa Paepo’o”……